for me, the memory of this famine is from my elders' stories. My uncle told me, that they used to catch farm rats to eat, they joke about the farm rats were way more clean then city rats. and there were story about a dad killed and eat his son, he was sentenced to death, before his death, he said, he just want to feel what meat tasted like one more last time.
there were many stories like this, maybe thats why food is so cheap and affordable in china these day, no more people go hungry.
No one seems that interested in counting up the numbers of people capitalism has killed, starting with the Industrial Revolution in Europe, and expanding outward to include colonial genocide. Those were not socialist projects.
Actually these deaths are accounted for in the historical record, for example, the why's and wherefore's of the Irish "Potato Famine". There are many valuable accounts of the costs of the Industrial Revolution. It's helpful to have a syllabus or bibliography, or a well-informed, discerning teacher, or a guy like Neil, who seems interested in letting the facts speak. I imagine if he had the time he'd be happy to recommend some books to get started. And then you can branch out from there... All the best!
Yes I agree if you search, you will find info in bits and pieces. But I meant an aggregate number like the one being used against Mao. What would that number be?
Thank you, Neil, for a clear, accurate report based on research. Many hands were washed with blood on their hands. If any country believes that would never happen to them, think again. History and contemporary events tell the story. Unfortunately, greed and power still dictate a myriad of policies everywhere. And the countries with the most money and power lead with the most influence. Might makes right. Virtue is often missing when most needed.
When I first read this book, as a much younger guy, of course, my first thought was: "wow, this is pretty explosive..." And then, quite soon after: "What this book really needs is extensive peer review by historians, economists, the lot. It will rightly take a good long time..." Thanks for your insights, Neil. I've wondered before what you might say about this and other works.
Thank you for this- I had heard some of it before. Our western governments and their corporate masters are only interested in vilifying communism in order to maintain their wealth extraction. The imperialist and colonial US empire is clearly an existential threat to all life on our planet. Rationally speaking, white people are the barbarians who have refused to become civilised- we may have instigated a load of rules for etiquette and manners, but that is very much a mask hiding the narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies of capitalism and its proponents who worship greed and selfishness.
Um, the institution of etiquette and manners has come from the White ruling class, not poor White people. Meaning, white people have white privilege but what that looks like is very different on a class basis. I am white, so my welfare worker treats me better than an Indigenous welfare recipient, is not the same think as I am Elon Musk. And many poor white people are definitely anti-capitalist because capitalism does not work for them. That's why there is a long history of white people involved in poverty class organizing in North America, some of it across racial lines like the Rainbow Coalition.
True to an extent, but the vast majority of white people are low key supremacist-racist in nature, particularly the US citizens who believe in American “exceptionalism”. The majority of white people have allowed themselves to be conditioned to support the parasite class in whatever form it takes. The majority support capitalism and imperialism if it means they get a better standard of living than people in lands being exploited by our corporations. The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists by Robert Tressel is as true now as it always was. I can’t believe in the “noble working class” when I see the degree of racism, xenophobia and selfish ignorance that exists amongst the majority. Yes, there are a small percentage of people fighting for social justice, but they are a minority. The vast majority show they don’t care by their undiscerning purchases and lack of basic ethical values. Maybe that will change- I certainly hope so.
Right, but I wasn't talking about the majority - the wealthy, the middle class and the working class. I am talking about the poverty class which is persistently ignored as a social force because they are so marginalized. And when you refer to the noble working class, you are referring to the trap Marx set which was to separate the lumpen from the protelariat and then make the proletariat his noble heroes, even though they have more to gain from capitalism than the lumpen ever do. Especially white working-class people who police the lumpen. If you actually grow up with poverty-class white people, and I did, you realize that their education is so low quality and knowledge is held orally more than written, that you cannot say what they think. Actually, poverty-class people are treated as though they cannot think at all. Which in my experience is bullshit. Lots of poverty-class white people where I grew up had plenty of political consciousness BECAUSE poverty unites neighbours in particular ways. And lots did not. But I don't like lumping white people of all classes together in terms of political consciousness, because it's reductionist, and it erases the extreme differences in privilege that exist among white people. It also cannot explain cross-racial solidarity, and misses the advantage of organizing poor whites in cross-racial organizing which is to show that whiteness is not inevitably racist or supremacist. It's a choice.
The system wouldn’t have endured for so long without the support of the majority. The majority dictate societal rules and so I don’t really understand how your original comment critiques mine. I agree with your points, but I don’t see how they negate what I said. Of course we can’t lump white people of all classes together, except the low key racism I refer to is certainly the norm in *every* class of white people in my experience.
The poverty classes were the ones referred to in the book I mentioned, who were persuaded that their bosses couldn’t afford to pay them more and when wages were reduced, they believed it was fair and reasonable that they should go without, just so the bosses would remain in comfort. (The book is fictional, but based entirely on his experience as a worker in an extremely poor society).
The wealthy are a small minority; the middle class are being reduced and either promoted to the wealthy if greedy and selfish, or demoted to working class; the working class are rapidly becoming the poverty class as housing and food become unaffordable. The poverty classes will be the majority within a relatively short time frame if the current system is allowed to endure, but their survival is obviously being reduced by lack of access to basic human needs. Most of the underclass have been persuaded to support right wing political ideology because of the faux left wing failures.
And of course racism is always a choice. Those people who show solidarity and particularly cross-racial solidarity without at least some degree of perceived superiority are a small minority. My experiences are mainly about England, but the US is much the same and Europe as well, although it varies considerably in different countries. The biggest problem is the psychological conditioning of virtually all of white society to believe in its moral and intellectual superiority, when that is patently false by all measures. I’m not talking of overt racism, I’m talking of a subconscious conviction that they know best.
The most significant and inclusive group of revolutionaries in the US were the Black Panthers, of course and they would have changed history and brought about real positive change for everyone.
Thank you for an acutal analysis of the famine. This is the revolutionary education we do not get here in Canada, which makes it difficult to know how to govern as a socialist. And a lot of revolutionary material is written at a very theoretical rather than a practical level which is what makes your writing very compelling. I think revolutionary governments in Russia and China and Cuba, have tended to be dominated by urbanites. History has shown that food self sufficiency and military defense are the key issues in terms of sovereignty and fighting off imperialist aggression. Meaning, your farmers matter just as much as your soldiers, so respect them and listen to them.
Curious to know -as an American who's best idea of the revolution comes from The Three Body Problem- is there a history of the time and it's aftermath that you could recommend as relatively accurate?
for me, the memory of this famine is from my elders' stories. My uncle told me, that they used to catch farm rats to eat, they joke about the farm rats were way more clean then city rats. and there were story about a dad killed and eat his son, he was sentenced to death, before his death, he said, he just want to feel what meat tasted like one more last time.
there were many stories like this, maybe thats why food is so cheap and affordable in china these day, no more people go hungry.
No one seems that interested in counting up the numbers of people capitalism has killed, starting with the Industrial Revolution in Europe, and expanding outward to include colonial genocide. Those were not socialist projects.
Thanks for your comment.
Actually these deaths are accounted for in the historical record, for example, the why's and wherefore's of the Irish "Potato Famine". There are many valuable accounts of the costs of the Industrial Revolution. It's helpful to have a syllabus or bibliography, or a well-informed, discerning teacher, or a guy like Neil, who seems interested in letting the facts speak. I imagine if he had the time he'd be happy to recommend some books to get started. And then you can branch out from there... All the best!
Yes I agree if you search, you will find info in bits and pieces. But I meant an aggregate number like the one being used against Mao. What would that number be?
Fascinating analysis of this period in China's history. Thank you for your research.
Thank you, Neil, for a clear, accurate report based on research. Many hands were washed with blood on their hands. If any country believes that would never happen to them, think again. History and contemporary events tell the story. Unfortunately, greed and power still dictate a myriad of policies everywhere. And the countries with the most money and power lead with the most influence. Might makes right. Virtue is often missing when most needed.
When I first read this book, as a much younger guy, of course, my first thought was: "wow, this is pretty explosive..." And then, quite soon after: "What this book really needs is extensive peer review by historians, economists, the lot. It will rightly take a good long time..." Thanks for your insights, Neil. I've wondered before what you might say about this and other works.
Thank you for this- I had heard some of it before. Our western governments and their corporate masters are only interested in vilifying communism in order to maintain their wealth extraction. The imperialist and colonial US empire is clearly an existential threat to all life on our planet. Rationally speaking, white people are the barbarians who have refused to become civilised- we may have instigated a load of rules for etiquette and manners, but that is very much a mask hiding the narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies of capitalism and its proponents who worship greed and selfishness.
Um, the institution of etiquette and manners has come from the White ruling class, not poor White people. Meaning, white people have white privilege but what that looks like is very different on a class basis. I am white, so my welfare worker treats me better than an Indigenous welfare recipient, is not the same think as I am Elon Musk. And many poor white people are definitely anti-capitalist because capitalism does not work for them. That's why there is a long history of white people involved in poverty class organizing in North America, some of it across racial lines like the Rainbow Coalition.
True to an extent, but the vast majority of white people are low key supremacist-racist in nature, particularly the US citizens who believe in American “exceptionalism”. The majority of white people have allowed themselves to be conditioned to support the parasite class in whatever form it takes. The majority support capitalism and imperialism if it means they get a better standard of living than people in lands being exploited by our corporations. The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists by Robert Tressel is as true now as it always was. I can’t believe in the “noble working class” when I see the degree of racism, xenophobia and selfish ignorance that exists amongst the majority. Yes, there are a small percentage of people fighting for social justice, but they are a minority. The vast majority show they don’t care by their undiscerning purchases and lack of basic ethical values. Maybe that will change- I certainly hope so.
Right, but I wasn't talking about the majority - the wealthy, the middle class and the working class. I am talking about the poverty class which is persistently ignored as a social force because they are so marginalized. And when you refer to the noble working class, you are referring to the trap Marx set which was to separate the lumpen from the protelariat and then make the proletariat his noble heroes, even though they have more to gain from capitalism than the lumpen ever do. Especially white working-class people who police the lumpen. If you actually grow up with poverty-class white people, and I did, you realize that their education is so low quality and knowledge is held orally more than written, that you cannot say what they think. Actually, poverty-class people are treated as though they cannot think at all. Which in my experience is bullshit. Lots of poverty-class white people where I grew up had plenty of political consciousness BECAUSE poverty unites neighbours in particular ways. And lots did not. But I don't like lumping white people of all classes together in terms of political consciousness, because it's reductionist, and it erases the extreme differences in privilege that exist among white people. It also cannot explain cross-racial solidarity, and misses the advantage of organizing poor whites in cross-racial organizing which is to show that whiteness is not inevitably racist or supremacist. It's a choice.
The system wouldn’t have endured for so long without the support of the majority. The majority dictate societal rules and so I don’t really understand how your original comment critiques mine. I agree with your points, but I don’t see how they negate what I said. Of course we can’t lump white people of all classes together, except the low key racism I refer to is certainly the norm in *every* class of white people in my experience.
The poverty classes were the ones referred to in the book I mentioned, who were persuaded that their bosses couldn’t afford to pay them more and when wages were reduced, they believed it was fair and reasonable that they should go without, just so the bosses would remain in comfort. (The book is fictional, but based entirely on his experience as a worker in an extremely poor society).
The wealthy are a small minority; the middle class are being reduced and either promoted to the wealthy if greedy and selfish, or demoted to working class; the working class are rapidly becoming the poverty class as housing and food become unaffordable. The poverty classes will be the majority within a relatively short time frame if the current system is allowed to endure, but their survival is obviously being reduced by lack of access to basic human needs. Most of the underclass have been persuaded to support right wing political ideology because of the faux left wing failures.
And of course racism is always a choice. Those people who show solidarity and particularly cross-racial solidarity without at least some degree of perceived superiority are a small minority. My experiences are mainly about England, but the US is much the same and Europe as well, although it varies considerably in different countries. The biggest problem is the psychological conditioning of virtually all of white society to believe in its moral and intellectual superiority, when that is patently false by all measures. I’m not talking of overt racism, I’m talking of a subconscious conviction that they know best.
The most significant and inclusive group of revolutionaries in the US were the Black Panthers, of course and they would have changed history and brought about real positive change for everyone.
Thank you for an acutal analysis of the famine. This is the revolutionary education we do not get here in Canada, which makes it difficult to know how to govern as a socialist. And a lot of revolutionary material is written at a very theoretical rather than a practical level which is what makes your writing very compelling. I think revolutionary governments in Russia and China and Cuba, have tended to be dominated by urbanites. History has shown that food self sufficiency and military defense are the key issues in terms of sovereignty and fighting off imperialist aggression. Meaning, your farmers matter just as much as your soldiers, so respect them and listen to them.
Curious to know -as an American who's best idea of the revolution comes from The Three Body Problem- is there a history of the time and it's aftermath that you could recommend as relatively accurate?
Have you read Harvest of Sorrow by Robert Conquest? Real parallels there.
no, gonna bookmark it.